Nag-Screens
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@smschumacher said in Nag-Screens:
I have to be quite honest but this motivates me much more to have a look at oVirt than to buy XCP-NG. I already gave Proxmox a try but this is, but it suffered from the exact same problem. Oh Sure, we are 100% open source, but if you want PREMIUM features you need to pay a few hundred dollars a month.
Same goes for me here. In the beginning I directly went away from XOA appliance, because of the many pages
That feature is unavailable in this version, if you like that, it's available in Version {Starter|Premium|Enterprise}.Having realized that XenOrchestra is Open Source at last after 2(?) years it was started, I baked it myself(Many thanks for the installation guide hereby!). The message
This version is not bundled with any support nor updates. Use it with caution.which is displayed on every f****** page is very annoying. I saw there's possibly a fix for it in this github issue: https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/4175
There is another presentation detail which I consider annoying and which I would like to disable:
- The red circle with a question mark at "XOA" menu entry, showing, that update information is not available.
What is acceptable / not annoying for me is...
- the yellow triangle with the words no support at the left, lower down the menu.
- an information about the version(open source, no support, bla ...) when updating or in monthly intervals
I read that is very import for Vates to inform the users about the possibility that there is commercial support available. I can understand that need to inform users so that nobody who wants support and has the budget just do not know.
But for me it's annoying and with the current state, I do not like the interface and won't recommend it to others and I kindly ask you to consider changing the policy on that topic.
When I look at the situation, I can imagine, that you really get some new customers by informing them constantly that there's support available. On the other side, you possibly loose a lot enthusiasts because of the nagging. Enthusiasts that are from the tech layer, who may have great influence on what software is being used and what not. Tech people who recommend software they like the to other users. If you have great software, anybody wants to use it. Tech people like me.
For me for example the monitoring solution check_mk is one of those software products. I got a recommendation for it and at the shared office space everyone is using it and I'm fascinated to talk to anyone interested about it and share my knowledge on the topic, because it's really great software.
I think Vates and you Olivier have earned great respect for me by starting up XCP-NG and I think you enriched the world by doing so. Thanks for that!
What regards Xen-Orchestra so far: Currently I have no strong preference for it. But that may change in future...
What regards the compare with proxmox: I think one message at a login is acceptable for me.
Regards,
forkclosed Permanent banner when running XOA from the sources #4175
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Banner can be removed now, so I don't really get your first point? Also, why reviving such an old topic just for that?
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Also, why reviving such an old topic just for that?
Because I firstly installed XO from source, got annoyed and this is the matching forum and the matching post for the issue. Lastly because you invited anyone to continue the discussion in the github issue. (https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/4430)
We are open to continue the discussion on the forum, which seems the best place to do so.
For me the issue isn't resolved. So I'm asking you for reconsidering as stated. That's why I shared my opinion about it. If you do not like my opinion nor discussion on this topic, just say a word, and I'll never bother the forum with my presence again.
closed Disable built from sources warning. #4430
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Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?
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@olivierlambert said in Nag-Screens:
Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?
I just read the information about that in the mentioned github issue. I haven't tried so far. Probably this is solved.
There is another presentation detail which I consider annoying and which I would like to disable:
The red circle with a question mark at "XOA" menu entry, showing, that update
information is not available.This one is still open.
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And this red circle is bothering you? I mean, what's really bothering you/having an impact for you? The color itself? Is putting it in yellow would change something?
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Impact: Yes, it's the red circle. I just dislike alarm symbols when situation is normal. I try to remove it myself from the code as long as I do not intend to buy a subscription.
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Okay it's more clear now. It's not what you like/dislike but potential confusions with alerts that make sense (this is a rational point that I can hear, vs "I dislike" which is a personal opinion). Anyway, that's what I wanted to understand. I'll discuss with the team about a solution.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Thanks Olivier for your clear feedback. I so experienced you are open to - even critical feedback - and realize you tried to understand my point of view. So I'm motivated to provide the feedback to the other points where I think things can be improved(in a new thread).
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Regarding the UI in general? We started to work on XO 6 anyway, so everything will change
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@olivierlambert said in Nag-Screens:
Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?
Hi Olivier, did I miss something?
Is there other way of doing this the one described on GitHub(which btw looks to be outdated?)? -
There's a cross on top right to dismiss it.
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But it will show next time you go to XOA on new cart. I thought you meant ease way to permanently remove it from sources like described here https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/4175#issuecomment-488320434
closed Permanent banner when running XOA from the sources #4175
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As we said there, we found a compromise: ability to remove it. So you won't have any space lost after dismissing it.
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Link to the descriptions to patch the disclaimer away:
https://github.com/FoxieHazmat/xenorchestraSourceBannerFix/issues/1
and to the script that does it for you(tested with XO 5.44.1):
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You could break at any time after an update because the layout changed for any reason.This amount of effort to contribute could have been done to actually improve the software. At least try to bring other contributions. Open Source is not just taking, it's also giving.
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Open Source is not just taking, it's also giving.
Yes, I totally agree. I'll have a look at the bugtracker to see what's to be done.
Are there any open tasks for a person like me with some scripting skills?
Open Source is also not about fighting against its users, I thought!
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Indeed, but "our" Open Source is fully independent from Facebook, Google or other big corps than can just throw their technology in Open Source because they have almost unlimited money to support it.
Without our paid users, there's no Xen Orchestra nor XCP-ng at all (remember that currently XO revenue is still paying for XCP-ng dev).
Having some removable banners displayed is just a small price to pay to enjoy both software without paying anything. I thought people would understand that. This means:
- a fraction of companies using it that could pay will see that and maybe change their mind
- others (home users) will just have to click on a cross to close it
I think this is a very reasonable amount of things to "endure" to get all the rest for free.
XO wasn't built by the community, despite everything is fully open since the start: so we are completely offering it to everyone without any counterpart.
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So, do you have needs for ...
- ... financial support to keep Vates running and growing and to have the resources to be able to further support XCP-NG development?
- ... other kinds of support for XCP-NG?
- ... a balance between giving and taking and you request some giving back for your huge efforts to bring forward xcp-ng and xo?
I have needs for ...
- ... trust, that software I use, will be developed in a direction that I appreciate and not into ways i hate(because I do want to avoid the needed efforts to abandon a software and migrate to another software):
- maximize usability
- keep free features free
- request reasonable and fair prices
- keeping ways to migration to other products open
- ... efficiency and tidyness
- clean and tidy interfaces
- easy ways to contribute with my competence(scripting skills). (I checked out the bugtracker and worry about having to need at least weeks to dive into the software before being able to do anything)
- ... a balance between giving and taking(giving something back for what I got)
- ... autonomy (deciding what and how much I give back in order to help)
- ... recognition of what I have gave to support others
- ... practise and development my compentences (scripting skills, ...)
- ... contribute to the world community for shared values, knowledge and tools
Suggestions for strategies about how our both needs can be met:
- Vates offers a sponsorship license: An easy way(web page) to pay a regular payment with an amount of the donators choice. All donators have the option to be listed with their preferred Name(company,private name, fantasy name) on a web page of donators(maybe sorted form hightest donation amount to lowest).
- Someone shows easy ways to help to improve XCP-NG with a time budget of hours instead of weeks or month for persons with scripting skills or maybe for various other needed/existent skills.
- Similar to the above: A task list is being created, where people with a limited time budget can contribute. This will serve as possibility for minor contributions and as a possible easy entry point for long term participation within the xcp-ng project
- Getting needs met is important: Think more about what needs exist and figure out strategies how to meet one ore more of those needs on both sides
What's regarding me, I'm a user of mostly Citrix XenServer at the moment. I personally decided to head for proxmox because performance is better. But never the less as stated above it would meet my needs to support xcp-ng.
Update:
Of course I knew you probably wouldn't be very fond of my action of supporting the prevention of the disclaimer. But I'm impressed that you didn't start to fight me and still stay in contact and communicate your needs! In my experience in IT forums that's a rare personal competence and I want to say thank you for that!
I thought several times about buying a starter subscription of xo, but I decided against it, because ~1000 EUR per year seamed to much for my company budget. (Yes, there are many other companies for which this amount of money is ridiculous, but not here). I definitely would pay a lower rate if I keep using XCP-NG for the companies virtualization.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I have no "need" personally, but the structure (Vates) must have money to pay full time developers on Xen Orchestra and XCP-ng. You don't work for free, right?
So basically, we are investing a lot of money into Xen Orchestra and XCP-ng to be able to deliver great products, and continue to improve them everyday (there's a monthly release in Xen Orchestra for example). Roughly, we need around 1 million USD per project and per year. For XCP-ng, it's growing bigger than that. I think you might have missed the order of magnitude needed to run a business like this.
All the money earned in XO and XCP-ng is reinvested in R&D and product improvements (you also need other services to run the company, but we always keep those costs as low as possible). Support is done by people developing the product, which is great because devs are never far from "the field".
When you need anything, you are usually paying for it, working for it or supporting it at least. Or you can be a free rider, which is OK if you are not too many. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem
Thank you for your advice, but don't you think we never thought about what you said, really? On prem Virtualization market is far too small to rely only on people donation. Seriously, even if you give 4 USD/month, we need 21k users donating this amount. It's just impossible.
So what are we selling in the end? We are selling a service, mainly on turnkey software AND support. This is how an Open Source business can work (not Open Core, eg like ElasticSearch). Because company need support. So why having those screens? Just to be able to remind "corporate" free-riders that they should take support. And you as a home user? Just ignore them, it's the small price to pay
We don't want to do Open Core, but I have the feeling that people reacting this way ("I need this"/self-centered free-riders) are clearly pushing companies in that direction.
I have no grudge against you (I don't even know you
). Vates and I don't owe you anything. You can use XO, or not. It's up to you. You can support it or not. I can't force you to stop creating patches that might help us to convince companies to get XOA or pay XCP-ng support.It's just that I don't find this supporting the project
