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    Nag-Screens

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Xen Orchestra
    30 Posts 5 Posters 5.4k Views 1 Watching
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    • fx991F Offline
      fx991
      last edited by

      Also, why reviving such an old topic just for that?

      Because I firstly installed XO from source, got annoyed and this is the matching forum and the matching post for the issue. Lastly because you invited anyone to continue the discussion in the github issue. (https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/4430)

      We are open to continue the discussion on the forum, which seems the best place to do so.

      For me the issue isn't resolved. So I'm asking you for reconsidering as stated. That's why I shared my opinion about it. If you do not like my opinion nor discussion on this topic, just say a word, and I'll never bother the forum with my presence again.

      declanmarks created this issue in vatesfr/xen-orchestra

      closed Disable built from sources warning. #4430

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      • olivierlambertO Offline
        olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
        last edited by

        Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?

        fx991F K 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • fx991F Offline
          fx991 @olivierlambert
          last edited by

          @olivierlambert said in Nag-Screens:

          Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?

          I just read the information about that in the mentioned github issue. I haven't tried so far. Probably this is solved.

          There is another presentation detail which I consider annoying and which I would like to disable:

          The red circle with a question mark at "XOA" menu entry, showing, that update
          information is not available.

          This one is still open.

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          • olivierlambertO Offline
            olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
            last edited by

            And this red circle is bothering you? I mean, what's really bothering you/having an impact for you? The color itself? Is putting it in yellow would change something?

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            • fx991F Offline
              fx991
              last edited by fx991

              Impact: Yes, it's the red circle. I just dislike alarm symbols when situation is normal. I try to remove it myself from the code as long as I do not intend to buy a subscription.

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              • olivierlambertO Offline
                olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
                last edited by

                Okay it's more clear now. It's not what you like/dislike but potential confusions with alerts that make sense (this is a rational point that I can hear, vs "I dislike" which is a personal opinion). Anyway, that's what I wanted to understand. I'll discuss with the team about a solution.

                Thanks for the feedback.

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                • fx991F Offline
                  fx991
                  last edited by

                  Thanks Olivier for your clear feedback. I so experienced you are open to - even critical feedback - and realize you tried to understand my point of view. So I'm motivated to provide the feedback to the other points where I think things can be improved(in a new thread).

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                  • olivierlambertO Offline
                    olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
                    last edited by

                    Regarding the UI in general? We started to work on XO 6 anyway, so everything will change 🙂

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                    • K Offline
                      krakers @olivierlambert
                      last edited by

                      @olivierlambert said in Nag-Screens:

                      Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?

                      Hi Olivier, did I miss something? 🙂 Is there other way of doing this the one described on GitHub(which btw looks to be outdated?)?

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                      • olivierlambertO Offline
                        olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
                        last edited by

                        There's a cross on top right to dismiss it.

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                        • K Offline
                          krakers
                          last edited by

                          But it will show next time you go to XOA on new cart. I thought you meant ease way to permanently remove it from sources like described here https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/4175#issuecomment-488320434

                          FoxieHazmat created this issue in vatesfr/xen-orchestra

                          closed Permanent banner when running XOA from the sources #4175

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                          • olivierlambertO Offline
                            olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
                            last edited by

                            As we said there, we found a compromise: ability to remove it. So you won't have any space lost after dismissing it.

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                            • fx991F Offline
                              fx991
                              last edited by fx991

                              Link to the descriptions to patch the disclaimer away:

                              https://github.com/FoxieHazmat/xenorchestraSourceBannerFix/issues/1

                              and to the script that does it for you(tested with XO 5.44.1):

                              https://github.com/megabert/xenorchestraSourceBannerFix

                              pageb018 created this issue in FoxieHazmat/xenorchestraSourceBannerFix

                              open anychance you have an update to make this work with newer versions? #1

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                              • olivierlambertO Offline
                                olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
                                last edited by

                                😕 You could break at any time after an update because the layout changed for any reason.

                                This amount of effort to contribute could have been done to actually improve the software. At least try to bring other contributions. Open Source is not just taking, it's also giving.

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                                • fx991F Offline
                                  fx991
                                  last edited by fx991

                                  Open Source is not just taking, it's also giving.

                                  Yes, I totally agree. I'll have a look at the bugtracker to see what's to be done.

                                  Are there any open tasks for a person like me with some scripting skills?

                                  Open Source is also not about fighting against its users, I thought!

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                                  • olivierlambertO Offline
                                    olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
                                    last edited by olivierlambert

                                    Indeed, but "our" Open Source is fully independent from Facebook, Google or other big corps than can just throw their technology in Open Source because they have almost unlimited money to support it.

                                    Without our paid users, there's no Xen Orchestra nor XCP-ng at all (remember that currently XO revenue is still paying for XCP-ng dev).

                                    Having some removable banners displayed is just a small price to pay to enjoy both software without paying anything. I thought people would understand that. This means:

                                    1. a fraction of companies using it that could pay will see that and maybe change their mind
                                    2. others (home users) will just have to click on a cross to close it

                                    I think this is a very reasonable amount of things to "endure" to get all the rest for free.

                                    XO wasn't built by the community, despite everything is fully open since the start: so we are completely offering it to everyone without any counterpart.

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                                    • fx991F Offline
                                      fx991
                                      last edited by fx991

                                      So, do you have needs for ...

                                      • ... financial support to keep Vates running and growing and to have the resources to be able to further support XCP-NG development?
                                      • ... other kinds of support for XCP-NG?
                                      • ... a balance between giving and taking and you request some giving back for your huge efforts to bring forward xcp-ng and xo?

                                      I have needs for ...

                                      • ... trust, that software I use, will be developed in a direction that I appreciate and not into ways i hate(because I do want to avoid the needed efforts to abandon a software and migrate to another software):
                                        • maximize usability
                                        • keep free features free
                                        • request reasonable and fair prices
                                        • keeping ways to migration to other products open
                                      • ... efficiency and tidyness
                                        • clean and tidy interfaces
                                        • easy ways to contribute with my competence(scripting skills). (I checked out the bugtracker and worry about having to need at least weeks to dive into the software before being able to do anything)
                                      • ... a balance between giving and taking(giving something back for what I got)
                                      • ... autonomy (deciding what and how much I give back in order to help)
                                      • ... recognition of what I have gave to support others
                                      • ... practise and development my compentences (scripting skills, ...)
                                      • ... contribute to the world community for shared values, knowledge and tools

                                      Suggestions for strategies about how our both needs can be met:

                                      • Vates offers a sponsorship license: An easy way(web page) to pay a regular payment with an amount of the donators choice. All donators have the option to be listed with their preferred Name(company,private name, fantasy name) on a web page of donators(maybe sorted form hightest donation amount to lowest).
                                      • Someone shows easy ways to help to improve XCP-NG with a time budget of hours instead of weeks or month for persons with scripting skills or maybe for various other needed/existent skills.
                                      • Similar to the above: A task list is being created, where people with a limited time budget can contribute. This will serve as possibility for minor contributions and as a possible easy entry point for long term participation within the xcp-ng project
                                      • Getting needs met is important: Think more about what needs exist and figure out strategies how to meet one ore more of those needs on both sides

                                      What's regarding me, I'm a user of mostly Citrix XenServer at the moment. I personally decided to head for proxmox because performance is better. But never the less as stated above it would meet my needs to support xcp-ng.

                                      Update:

                                      Of course I knew you probably wouldn't be very fond of my action of supporting the prevention of the disclaimer. But I'm impressed that you didn't start to fight me and still stay in contact and communicate your needs! In my experience in IT forums that's a rare personal competence and I want to say thank you for that!

                                      I thought several times about buying a starter subscription of xo, but I decided against it, because ~1000 EUR per year seamed to much for my company budget. (Yes, there are many other companies for which this amount of money is ridiculous, but not here). I definitely would pay a lower rate if I keep using XCP-NG for the companies virtualization.

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                                      • olivierlambertO Offline
                                        olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
                                        last edited by olivierlambert

                                        Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

                                        I have no "need" personally, but the structure (Vates) must have money to pay full time developers on Xen Orchestra and XCP-ng. You don't work for free, right? 😉

                                        So basically, we are investing a lot of money into Xen Orchestra and XCP-ng to be able to deliver great products, and continue to improve them everyday (there's a monthly release in Xen Orchestra for example). Roughly, we need around 1 million USD per project and per year. For XCP-ng, it's growing bigger than that. I think you might have missed the order of magnitude needed to run a business like this.

                                        All the money earned in XO and XCP-ng is reinvested in R&D and product improvements (you also need other services to run the company, but we always keep those costs as low as possible). Support is done by people developing the product, which is great because devs are never far from "the field".

                                        When you need anything, you are usually paying for it, working for it or supporting it at least. Or you can be a free rider, which is OK if you are not too many. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem

                                        Thank you for your advice, but don't you think we never thought about what you said, really? On prem Virtualization market is far too small to rely only on people donation. Seriously, even if you give 4 USD/month, we need 21k users donating this amount. It's just impossible.

                                        So what are we selling in the end? We are selling a service, mainly on turnkey software AND support. This is how an Open Source business can work (not Open Core, eg like ElasticSearch). Because company need support. So why having those screens? Just to be able to remind "corporate" free-riders that they should take support. And you as a home user? Just ignore them, it's the small price to pay 🙂

                                        We don't want to do Open Core, but I have the feeling that people reacting this way ("I need this"/self-centered free-riders) are clearly pushing companies in that direction.

                                        I have no grudge against you (I don't even know you 😄 ). Vates and I don't owe you anything. You can use XO, or not. It's up to you. You can support it or not. I can't force you to stop creating patches that might help us to convince companies to get XOA or pay XCP-ng support.

                                        It's just that I don't find this supporting the project 🙂

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                                        • fx991F Offline
                                          fx991
                                          last edited by fx991

                                          Ok. If you like to drop out of this conversation at any time, a conversation which you may consider a useless waste of time, it's ok for me.

                                          I thought about if this concern is important enough before starting into that direction. I decided it absolutely was and still is. And I still think it is a great contribution once my thoughts are actually understood - which is not the case currently.

                                          The following benefits are realistic to me if the suggestions are adopted:

                                          • Additional money as donations from home users/small company users(100k+ €/annually medium term worldwide)
                                          • Increased User satisfaction
                                          • Increased encouragement and participation in xcp-ng and maybe xo
                                          • Increased efficiency in communication

                                          If you're not interested in that, I'll gladly stay away from further consuming your time and just may look on my own on how to contribute to xcp-ng in a way it contributes to your needs as stated by you so far.

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                                          • olivierlambertO Offline
                                            olivierlambert Vates 🪐 Co-Founder CEO
                                            last edited by

                                            I'd like to have both user satisfaction and being able to pay my team at the end of the month. In the end, luckily, there's a minority of users like you complaining about a banner that helps to tell people they can support the project in a pro environment 🙂

                                            Other points:

                                            • We haven't displayed this banner before, and it didn't increase or decrease participation to XO/XCP-ng (so this argument is irrelevant)
                                            • We'll never reach 100k€/y donation due to the market size, I can bet on that if you like. And it would finance only 1 person on the project, far from making a large difference (and it will be less and less due to project size increase). Plus it will damage the product perception as something like more a "charity", losing the professional perception needed to sell to corporate (that's the reality).

                                            So basically you are trying to do a strawman: trying to convince people (or yourself) that I don't want user satisfaction and participation or better communication. That's not true and this is a fallacy 🙂

                                            Again, if you don't want to contribute/support the project, just do it! It's just about admitting you want to be an active "free rider", and you are doing it actively (not just "passively"). I'm just saying I'm not finding that really helpful for the project and that energy must have been push for a greater good.

                                            To be fair, when I'm using other Open Source projects, like FreeNAS or PfSense, I'll never complain about any banner or warning about the fact I don't have support. When I have issues with Zimbra, that's on me, I'm alone to solve them (I don't have support). I'm a "passive" free rider sometimes, but I won't fight those devs/companies about it. I prefer to use my time to contribute if I need or to build myself an Open Source thing. Or even promote it!

                                            Again, I have no grudge against you, as you see, I'm listening and getting your input. I'm not asking you to get out of here or whatever, I'm always open to explain in details reasons of our choices 🙂 Hope my message is more clear now.

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