Nag-Screens



  • Hello,

    I would very much like to use XenOrchestra in Combination with XCP-NG but considering thats its Open Source there are simply to many nag-screens which remind you to buy the XO-Appliance. I do not need commercial support. There is "This version is not bundled with any support nor updates. Use it with caution.", which is the most annoying and the "No Support", which I consider fair. But just a few minutes ago nearly the whole screen was filled by a post pointing out how unsecure this version is and that I should consider buying a commercial version. Is this really necessary? Maybe one could find a common middle point and you could remove these screens for a one-time donation. I have to be quite honest but this motivates me much more to have a look at oVirt than to buy XCP-NG. I already gave Proxmox a try but this is, but it suffered from the exact same problem. Oh Sure, we are 100% open source, but if you want PREMIUM features you need to pay a few hundred dollars a month.

    Yours sincerely
    Stefan


  • XCP-ng Team

    Hi @smschumacher

    It's a good question and there's no easy answer.

    First, Xen Orchestra is not Open Core: you have all XO features from the sources, so it's not true to say "you want premium feature you need to pay". We are talking about support and some tools outside XO itself.

    There's no problem for individuals using from the sources, and enjoy everything for free. Note that Vates made 99,99% of the code base, it's not a dev community effort. So we decided to put it for free and Open Source, because we believe in that fair model. That's why we also decided to do XCP-ng.

    But what about no companies using XOA and support? How could we pay the 6 full time devs to work on it? So this is a kind of way to remind corporate usage that's NOT safe to use it without support. In a ideal world, this won't have to be displayed. But don't be naive, the reality is often harsh.

    How could we detect that your source install is for your home lab or if you are a company?

    Also the donation would be even more problematic: companies will prefer to do that instead of paying for support. This would put us at risk. Also remember that for now XOA subscriptions are also paying for XCP-ng development. We aren't a big company, and we rely exclusively on XOA/XCP-ng support revenue, that's it. And the market isn't that huge (cheaper plans would be even close to break-even): to go cheap you need the numbers, and they aren't here.

    There is a reason for those messages, it's not made to bother you, it's made to bother corporate users who want to use it from the sources and just take support for 1 month when they got a problem (you know, as if you took an insurance for your car just after crashing it).

    I agree it's a delicate balance, and it's hard to find the sweet spot. Are you really in pain to see those messages, knowing it might help us to get corporate users to decide to take support because their boss saw the warning?

    Anyway, suggestions welcome, I'm always open to hear feedback!

    edit: talking about oVirt, you know it's the RHEL "community version" right? Why companies are paying for RHEL? Because of the brand name. It's Redhat. Well, even IBM now. We aren't that kind of fish.



  • I'm not sure how valid your argument is here. In my experience as a solutions architect, the companies who can afford support will end up buying it simply for the peace of mind. Smaller companies who can't afford it, wont buy it (with or without the nag screens).

    Secondly, if someone is building from source, chances are they're smart enough to realize there are many ways to remove those nag screens if you just think about it for a moment. I've personally removed all the "nags" on my lab server since I have no need/use for support, however, if a client wanted it I would happily recommend it.

    Lastly, In my opinion those nag screens only push people away from a technology and find alternatives (i.e. Proxmox).

    Food for thought.


  • XCP-ng Team

    That's not true: it happens that people doesn't know there's service coming with a software. It's not a nag screen, it shows/explains that support is available.

    Also, if all companies which can afford it just purchased it, believe me we could have more subscribers 😉 Reality is never black or white, so it's a balanced choice to make people understand there's a cost behind the software, and if you are a company, purchasing support will help the project too.

    Note: we don't have official numbers because there's no tracking whatsoever in version available on GitHub, but we have often some "surprises", especially since XCP-ng (people asking for help on XCP-ng, paying a reasonable amount for XCP-ng Support, and we discover XO is in production from the sources on this infrastructure: if what you said is true, that wouldn't exist at all)

    Regarding the removal of those messages, if you can afford to take time to remove it because… because, you can (but I don't see the point, feel free to explain what's the issue with those messages displayed), well, good for you, you are indeed not the target anyway 🙂



  • @smschumacher said in Nag-Screens:

    I have to be quite honest but this motivates me much more to have a look at oVirt than to buy XCP-NG. I already gave Proxmox a try but this is, but it suffered from the exact same problem. Oh Sure, we are 100% open source, but if you want PREMIUM features you need to pay a few hundred dollars a month.

    Same goes for me here. In the beginning I directly went away from XOA appliance, because of the many pages

    That feature is unavailable in this version, if you like that, it's available in Version {Starter|Premium|Enterprise}.
    

    Having realized that XenOrchestra is Open Source at last after 2(?) years it was started, I baked it myself(Many thanks for the installation guide hereby!). The message

    This version is not bundled with any support nor updates. Use it with caution.
    

    which is displayed on every f****** page is very annoying. I saw there's possibly a fix for it in this github issue: https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/4175

    There is another presentation detail which I consider annoying and which I would like to disable:

    • The red circle with a question mark at "XOA" menu entry, showing, that update information is not available.

    What is acceptable / not annoying for me is...

    • the yellow triangle with the words no support at the left, lower down the menu.
    • an information about the version(open source, no support, bla ...) when updating or in monthly intervals

    I read that is very import for Vates to inform the users about the possibility that there is commercial support available. I can understand that need to inform users so that nobody who wants support and has the budget just do not know.

    But for me it's annoying and with the current state, I do not like the interface and won't recommend it to others and I kindly ask you to consider changing the policy on that topic.

    When I look at the situation, I can imagine, that you really get some new customers by informing them constantly that there's support available. On the other side, you possibly loose a lot enthusiasts because of the nagging. Enthusiasts that are from the tech layer, who may have great influence on what software is being used and what not. Tech people who recommend software they like the to other users. If you have great software, anybody wants to use it. Tech people like me.

    For me for example the monitoring solution check_mk is one of those software products. I got a recommendation for it and at the shared office space everyone is using it and I'm fascinated to talk to anyone interested about it and share my knowledge on the topic, because it's really great software.

    I think Vates and you Olivier have earned great respect for me by starting up XCP-NG and I think you enriched the world by doing so. Thanks for that!

    What regards Xen-Orchestra so far: Currently I have no strong preference for it. But that may change in future...

    What regards the compare with proxmox: I think one message at a login is acceptable for me.

    Regards,
    fork


  • XCP-ng Team

    Banner can be removed now, so I don't really get your first point? Also, why reviving such an old topic just for that?



  • Also, why reviving such an old topic just for that?

    Because I firstly installed XO from source, got annoyed and this is the matching forum and the matching post for the issue. Lastly because you invited anyone to continue the discussion in the github issue. (https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/4430)

    We are open to continue the discussion on the forum, which seems the best place to do so.

    For me the issue isn't resolved. So I'm asking you for reconsidering as stated. That's why I shared my opinion about it. If you do not like my opinion nor discussion on this topic, just say a word, and I'll never bother the forum with my presence again.


  • XCP-ng Team

    Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?



  • @olivierlambert said in Nag-Screens:

    Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?

    I just read the information about that in the mentioned github issue. I haven't tried so far. Probably this is solved.

    There is another presentation detail which I consider annoying and which I would like to disable:

    The red circle with a question mark at "XOA" menu entry, showing, that update
    information is not available.

    This one is still open.


  • XCP-ng Team

    And this red circle is bothering you? I mean, what's really bothering you/having an impact for you? The color itself? Is putting it in yellow would change something?



  • Impact: Yes, it's the red circle. I just dislike alarm symbols when situation is normal. I try to remove it myself from the code as long as I do not intend to buy a subscription.


  • XCP-ng Team

    Okay it's more clear now. It's not what you like/dislike but potential confusions with alerts that make sense (this is a rational point that I can hear, vs "I dislike" which is a personal opinion). Anyway, that's what I wanted to understand. I'll discuss with the team about a solution.

    Thanks for the feedback.



  • Thanks Olivier for your clear feedback. I so experienced you are open to - even critical feedback - and realize you tried to understand my point of view. So I'm motivated to provide the feedback to the other points where I think things can be improved(in a new thread).


  • XCP-ng Team

    Regarding the UI in general? We started to work on XO 6 anyway, so everything will change 🙂



  • @olivierlambert said in Nag-Screens:

    Not sure to understand: what's not solved? The top banner than you can remove now?

    Hi Olivier, did I miss something? 🙂 Is there other way of doing this the one described on GitHub(which btw looks to be outdated?)?


  • XCP-ng Team

    There's a cross on top right to dismiss it.



  • But it will show next time you go to XOA on new cart. I thought you meant ease way to permanently remove it from sources like described here https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/4175#issuecomment-488320434


  • XCP-ng Team

    As we said there, we found a compromise: ability to remove it. So you won't have any space lost after dismissing it.




  • XCP-ng Team

    😕 You could break at any time after an update because the layout changed for any reason.

    This amount of effort to contribute could have been done to actually improve the software. At least try to bring other contributions. Open Source is not just taking, it's also giving.


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