XCP-ng Center 20.03.00 released

hvilches

I am learning so much... thank you.

The issue probably here, the flags:

uuid ( RO)                                  : 13a6127c-59ab-1da2-1f2c-50fae29b5775
                            name-label ( RW): Snap with Center
                      name-description ( RW):
                          user-version ( RW): 1
                         is-a-template ( RW): true
                   is-default-template ( RW): false
                         is-a-snapshot ( RO): true

uuid ( RO)                                  : 05847d68-ae1f-c06b-c05f-aeff2ca5c6fe
                            name-label ( RW): Snap with XOA
                      name-description ( RW): Had to change to HVM and remove "console=hvc0" from kernel line
                          user-version ( RW): 1
                         is-a-template ( RW): false
                   is-default-template ( RW): false
                         is-a-snapshot ( RO): true

hvilches

@Danp said in XCP-ng Center 20.03.00 released:

@hvilches said in XCP-ng Center 20.03.00 released:

is-a-template ( RW): true

Looks like this is the culprit...

You beat me to it.

hvilches

~~Also worth noting is that Center isn't adding the name-description string, whereas XOA is.~~

No... XOA is defaulting to the name-description (as expected.) and Center is asking for one, and I left it blank... No issue here.

borzel

So it's clear to me (as thinking of inside Center): it is not a "template", so the snapshot is not working in the VM creation wizard. That's also the case with XOA snaps from backups, you can not create a VM from that in Center.. I always wondered about that, but as you found the flag it seems clear to me.

We could fix it in two ways:

let Center create VMs from also from snapshot that are not "a template"
don't show the menu entry in Center on the snapshot list if it is not "is-template"

I wonder why this flag is important, what was the reason to program Center this way

hvilches

@borzel

I would surmise, that since Center is behaving as it has for as long as I can remember, the fix should be applied to XO.

XO should set the template flag on a snapshot, so XenCenter and XCP-ng Center both behave as expected. The two flags I imagine are used by XenCenter and XCP-ng to build lists in the relevant dialogs that require ONLY templates, or templates and snapshots of a given VM. In this case, the dialog looks to show is-a-template (true) and is-a-snap-shot (true) and is it for the selected VM.

That said, I don't know enough about the implications. It may just be a flag, or there is something much deeper going on.

Said another way, if XO's snapshots are generated identically to Center's snapshots, then the flag is the only difference. The flag would be the only fix needed.

olivierlambert

We won't change a behavior on XO without having a good reason to do so. Historical reason is not a good one Happy to learn more if it's relevant to anything

hvilches

@olivierlambert

Said another way, if XO's snapshots are generated identically to Center's snapshots, then the flag is the only difference. The flag would be the only fix needed.

olivierlambert

"Fix needed" from your perspective, not for mine, until there's a good reason to do so

hvilches

This post is deleted!

hvilches

@olivierlambert

Your response worries me. How many other features in Center, replicated in XO, are actually not the same feature? As a user, I trust that a snapshot in *Center or XO behave identically across both. They are both supposed to be using the same API. Why are they different? Over time, it would lead to distrust of XO.

I have just learned, for example, I cannot trust XO snapshots. And what problems might I encounter with VMs created in XO today, when I try to manage them in Center, months from now?

olivierlambert

Ask @nikade how he feels about some differences We are trying to do things right, and with less "historical" reasons. Xen Orchestra is NOT a clone of XenCenter. And was never meant to be.

If you are using XCP-ng, you should trust XO more than XCP-ng Center: because XO is actively maintained by a team of 6 dev working full time. XCP-ng Center is kindly maintained by @borzel and he's alone.

Also, you can't tell us it's a move from us to make people prisoner about a product, Xen Orchestra is fully Open Source and free.

So if you can explain the reason why we should do otherwise about snapshot, go ahead. Otherwise, I won't change a XO behavior without any other reason that's how another client is doing: this is not enough.

hvilches

@olivierlambert

I understand your point, but my point is just as valid: I have just learned, for example, I cannot trust XO snapshots. And what problems might I encounter with VMs created in XO today, when I try to manage them in Center, months from now?

olivierlambert

Why you can't trust them?

hvilches

@olivierlambert

Because they are not true snapshots, as they have been defined in Center. They do not behave the same, then they are not the same. Yet they are both snapshots... What else is called the same in XO and Center but are actually not the same?

olivierlambert

WTF, "not true snapshots"? Best I've heard today

Seriously, try to understand why on earth XCP-ng Center is doing that instead of telling it's XO's fault.

hvilches

@olivierlambert

It is doing that because upstream does that.

A true snapshot allows me to create a VM from it. It has done so in XenCenter for as long as I can remember, and XCP-ng Center has continued that.

And yes, this makes me very weary of using XO, and that I will not have a choice in the future but XO.

But, I will leave now and you can decide how much it is ok to diverge from upstream.

olivierlambert

There's no true or false snapshot: there's snapshot that's a template, which is dumb because if you export the snapshot then it's a template and not a VM.

In XO, a snapshot is a VM, not a template. Which is far better. For tons of reasons: backup/restore, export etc.

Now convince me we should do otherwise, for now you have 0 technical argument.

edit: if you like that much what you call the "upstream" (real thing would be more "the original"), why are you using XCP-ng and not Citrix Hypervisor?

In XCP-ng, upstream is where there's more contribution. XO get more than XCP-ng Center, so it's the only officially supported client or XCP-ng.

hvilches

@olivierlambert

I am using XCP-ng because I believe in your vision as opposed to your competitors. There are other options, and yet I like what you've done with XO/A and XCP-ng. And that's why I am writing here, whereas I have never participated in a feature/bug discussion with Citrix.

If earn a Euro in France, I expect that Euro to behave the same anywhere else that Euro's are accepted. I didn't earn a French Euro, only valid in places that accept French Euros.

The snapshot I created in XO, is my earned Euro. Except that I didn't realize it was an XO Snapshot, different from a Center snapshot. Why that is I leave to you, but it is undeniable that they are not created equal, be it a dumb concept or not.

Still, there is no need to continue this, as the facts are already in the thread, from both perspectives. I was just trying to help, and I am learning more than I ever expected.

olivierlambert

That's what I thought, you don't really get the fact it's still a snapshot.

It's just that it's not a template, which is only a flag to tell XAPI how to behave. It comes with the exact same data inside.

These are the facts. That you don't like it is an opinion, not a fact

hvilches

@olivierlambert

No, I get that... and thats the silly part. All XO needs to do is set the flag, and it has been clear from the moment you had me print the objects.

It is super clear to me... the XO Snapshot is different than the Center Snapshot, only because of a single flag that XO is not setting to be true.

That difference, is enough to make them behave differently. They are not the same, no matter how tiny that difference may be.